APPENDIX TWO
INTERVIEWS/ QUESTIONNAIRE FINDINGS THROUGH EMAIL AND OTHERWISE.
The main reason I started down this line of enquiry was after hearing about the Lewis Carroll society and wondering why anyone, least of all normal people (non-creatives) would join such a society. This proved to me it was definitely an adult fascination rather than a childlike love of Alice. I had thought that maybe the non-creatives love the story because it allows them to interact with creativity that they otherwise wouldn't find in their life. It could also have been something deeper within them that they weren't connecting to. I myself was not particularly enamoured with Alice in Wonderland, I respected it and found it interesting and entertaining, but as to why it is so enthralling to some...I had no idea at the start of my investigations.
Lewis Carroll society
First email:
Dear Sir/ Madam,
I am an illustration student researching an essay on Alice in Wonderland and
why it has such timeless appeal to all types of people. I am a fan of the
books myself, and as part of my primary research I am interested in getting
more opinions about the importance of Alice .
It would be a massively great help to me if you and possibly a few in
the society could find the time to answer one brief question:
What do you think is the meaning of the Alice books, and is the same
fascination to be found in other works of literature?
Your answer(s) will be greatly appreciated, and any length of reply is
welcome.
Thank you in anticipation of your response,
Kemi Athene Pennicott
I am an illustration student researching an essay on Alice in Wonderland and
why it has such timeless appeal to all types of people. I am a fan of the
books myself, and as part of my primary research I am interested in getting
more opinions about the importance of Alice .
It would be a massively great help to me if you and possibly a few in
the society could find the time to answer one brief question:
What do you think is the meaning of the Alice books, and is the same
fascination to be found in other works of literature?
Your answer(s) will be greatly appreciated, and any length of reply is
welcome.
Thank you in anticipation of your response,
Kemi Athene Pennicott
Their response:
From: Mark Richards < markrichards@aznet.co.uk >To: 'Kemi Athene Pennicott' <kemiathenia@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2012, 18:01Subject: RE: Message Received via: The Lewis Carroll Society Website
Thank you for your email.
We are always willing to help students in their work, but I'm afraid your
question is too wide for us to give a simpler straight-forward answer.
People have been researching those questions for years and numerous papers
and essays have been written about the Alice books and their meaning.
All I can recommend is that you read up on the subject. I'd recommend
"Aspects of Alice " edited by Robert Phillips, the Norton Critical Edition of
the Alice books, and Gardner 's Annotated Alice.
If you have more specific questions I think we can help, so feel free to
come back to me.
Yours
Mark Richards
Chairman, Lewis Carroll Society
My response:
Dear Mark Richards,
Thank you for recommending that- I've actually got two of those books; I find especially Aspects of Alice a real help. I am aware that it is a big question. I was wondering more what people might say when not thinking about it analytically as many researchers have, when it is more of a spur of the moment answer. I've asked a few friends who have given a few answers, and was just wondering what a dedicated fan may think of the matter, as none of them particularly were.
As for a new question...
Do you think there is a link between the love of Alice and the desire to assimilate creativity into life, as regular life can often be bland and distracting to creative pursuits?
Kemi Athene Pennicott
Their response:
If you want those sort of opinions, I think the easiest way is to go to the Lewis Carroll Yahoo Group. It is not very active, but does have a lot of devoted Carrollians on it. I think you will get a range of replies – probably from the sublime to the ridiculous! I cannot remember the address for it, but you can find it by searching for “lewis carroll yahoo group”.
Also, on facebook, you could try the “Lewis Carroll Society of North America” group/page. They have a lot of member (all round the world) and so you might be able to post a question. There are a couple of other pages on facebook, but the LCSNA is the only one where I know a lot of the members and so can recommend it.
In answer to your new question. Wow, that’s a tough one. I would probably say there is no connection. Or, at least, no more a connection in Alice than in any book.
My own thoughts on the success of Alice are:
(1) It is funny. Perhaps not hilarious, but funny in a clever way. And I should add to this that it is beautifully written and hence a joy to read. That might be an obvious point, but there are book which are enjoyable – perhaps because they tell a good story – which are not as attractively written.
(2) The intelligent reader will experience a range of emotions. E.g. joy, sadness, annoyance, frustration, as Alice herself does. That is becoming less common in children’s books, I think, which makes Alice stand out. It also makes it harder for some children – depending on the age and their and maturity. Read it at the wrong stage in life and you may hate it.
(3) For all the copies and other works inspired by Alice , the books are still seem remarkably original. They have a strangeness about them which leads to curiosity.
(4) For adult readers there are certain surreal qualities which catch our imagination. In particular, Alice in Wonderland, has a flowing quality about it which appealed to the Surrealists – I think they felt it was Carroll allowing his inner thoughts to creep out – which is what they were trying to achieve. If that is so, then the modern adult reader, without realising it, might feel that the book does come from the subconscious mind and therefore echoes some of the deeper thoughts of all of us.
Regards
Mark
I was in truth a little disappointed with their responses; I had expected more, seeing as they are true Alice fans. I declined looking up the yahoo group, as by that stage I already had other more fruitful research.
Another failed line of enquiry was to the British Tea Lovers Society:
I am a massive tea enthusiast, and I believe, as I'm sure you'll understand, that tea has some quintessentially brilliant quality that has helped define Britishness, if there is such a thing, and that it helps build relationships, strengthen them and create laughter.
I am also an Illustration student writing as essay on Alice in Wonderland and I'm very interested in the broader function of the tea-party and of tea-time not just in the book but in society on the whole. As part of my research I would really appreciate if you'd find the time to answer two questions I have regarding tea:
Why do you think tea is such an important staple in society, and why is it important to keep this tradition alive?
Kemi Athene Pennicott
University of the Arts London
(See Appendix Four, p.1)
They didn't answer.
Dr Leo de Freitas
I approached Leo after a lecture on the history of illustration in which Alice was mentioned. He had a lot of former knowledge of the subject, and has recently put on an exhibition of John Tenniel's illustrations. He said some rather interesting things, most interestingly: the plot of Alice in Wonderland reads like a card game, which is all about chance, luck and fluidity, which is possibly why it's so readable still. However Through the Looking Glass is more sustained, less fluid, and seems not as creative as the first. This could be because it has a very systematic foundation: a chess game, which is not so free, loose and fun as a game of cards.
My own theory,a s soon as he said this was that not only was this true but profound in meaning as regards the subconscious audience response. Cards are much more user-friendly and are played by everyone in some form. Chess however is more rigid and dependant on mathematical and logical skill, and not as accessible by the masses. There is more of a class element in a game of chess than a game of cards, whatever the game may be. This certainly gave me a lot to think about.
I later wrote him an email:
-----Original Message-----
From: Kemi Athene Pennicott <kemiathenia@yahoo.co.uk>
To: leojdefreitas <leojdefreitas@aol.com>
Sent: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:32
Subject: Alice in Wonderland
Hi Leo,
It's Kemi, the student you met earlier about Alice in Wonderland. (Still sure the jabberwock's in the Looking Glass) ;)
I wanted to ask you a few other things pertaining to why Alice remains so popular. I've been doing research and a few interesting things have come up; I wanted to know your opinion on them as of course you have studied Alice extensively.
Have you heard of Jenny Woolf? She wrote quite a good biography of Lewis Carroll, and in it she puts forward the view that the reason Alice was so popular was the lack of religiosity or morals that were so common in other childrens' books of the time. The country was of course in a heightened state of reassessment regards the Christian faith, a problem exacerbated probably by Darwin so recently to Alice's publication, and 'Carroll' must have been interested in all that too as a reverend.
You happened to mention that today's society is spiritually bereft. Do you reckon there's something in the argument that people found Alice so oddly compelling because it was refreshing not to have to think about those things, and the fascination still holds because that attitude is still the same?
Which leads me to the second thing... In his book on secret societies, J. Black draws unsettling comparisons between Alice in Wonderland and the initiation process into the ancient Eleusian Mystery Schools: 'Candidates fell down a hole, underwent a near-drowning experience before having to squeeze through a very small door and hold logic-chopping conversations with anthropomorphic animals.'
Perhaps the reason for Alice's popularity is something to do with mankind's search for some kind of spiritual meaning in a spiritually bereft world, and opinions are turning from organised thought to more raw, earlier religious ideas of spirituality.
What's your opinion on any of that?
Thanks so much for your opinions, it really helps. That wasn't too many questions, was it? It's only basically two, and they have the same theme. It's interesting what you said also about the dimension of chance as regards the card game...
Also, thanks a lot for your lecture programme, I always find the lectures fascinating, don't know how anyone managed to fall asleep behind me today!
Kemi Athene Pennicott
From: Kemi Athene Pennicott <kemiathenia@yahoo.co.uk>
To: leojdefreitas <leojdefreitas@aol.com>
Sent: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:32
Subject: Alice in Wonderland
Hi Leo,
It's Kemi, the student you met earlier about Alice in Wonderland. (Still sure the jabberwock's in the Looking Glass) ;)
I wanted to ask you a few other things pertaining to why Alice remains so popular. I've been doing research and a few interesting things have come up; I wanted to know your opinion on them as of course you have studied Alice extensively.
Have you heard of Jenny Woolf? She wrote quite a good biography of Lewis Carroll, and in it she puts forward the view that the reason Alice was so popular was the lack of religiosity or morals that were so common in other childrens' books of the time. The country was of course in a heightened state of reassessment regards the Christian faith, a problem exacerbated probably by Darwin so recently to Alice's publication, and 'Carroll' must have been interested in all that too as a reverend.
You happened to mention that today's society is spiritually bereft. Do you reckon there's something in the argument that people found Alice so oddly compelling because it was refreshing not to have to think about those things, and the fascination still holds because that attitude is still the same?
Which leads me to the second thing... In his book on secret societies, J. Black draws unsettling comparisons between Alice in Wonderland and the initiation process into the ancient Eleusian Mystery Schools: 'Candidates fell down a hole, underwent a near-drowning experience before having to squeeze through a very small door and hold logic-chopping conversations with anthropomorphic animals.'
Perhaps the reason for Alice's popularity is something to do with mankind's search for some kind of spiritual meaning in a spiritually bereft world, and opinions are turning from organised thought to more raw, earlier religious ideas of spirituality.
What's your opinion on any of that?
Thanks so much for your opinions, it really helps. That wasn't too many questions, was it? It's only basically two, and they have the same theme. It's interesting what you said also about the dimension of chance as regards the card game...
Also, thanks a lot for your lecture programme, I always find the lectures fascinating, don't know how anyone managed to fall asleep behind me today!
Kemi Athene Pennicott
His response:
Hi Kemi
You have won your cup of coffee!! Of course Jabberwock and the White Knight are in Looking Glass! I knew that! Fatigue is to explain for my lapse of memory! Hoo-boo! (as either Tweedledee or Tweedledum would have cried)
OK, here are some tentative answers to your questions:
Have you heard of Jenny Woolf? She wrote quite a good biography of Lewis Carroll, and in it she puts forward the view that the reason Alice was so popular was the lack of religiosity or morals that were so common in other childrens' books of the time. The country was of course in a heightened state of reassessment regards the Christian faith, a problem exacerbated probably by Darwin so recently to Alice's publication, and 'Carroll' must have been interested in all that too as a reverend.
You happened to mention that today's society is spiritually bereft. Do you reckon there's something in the argument that people found Alice so oddly compelling because it was refreshing not to have to think about those things, and the fascination still holds because that attitude is still the same?
Well, certainly 'Alice' is without direct or obvious moralising (you could, of course, find moral precepts in the stories – e.g. the White Rabbit's concern not to be late [a bad thing] The Queen's belief in unquestioned power ['Off with their heads!' at every displeasure she feels]) - but I think it is important to remember that LC himself said (somewhere) that his children's stories were 'fantasies' and without any ulterior meaning. I think what Woolf was saying is that the USUAL approach to children's literature HAD BEEN educational and moral as opposed to simply 'recreational'; e.g. the early Victorian literature for children had been heavily influenced by the Religious Tract society (see for example 'The Religious Tract Society as a publisher of children's books' and studies of such writers as Maria Edgeworth – I think) and this is usually well covered in the histories of children's literature and illustration for children's literature (see, for example Whalley & Chester History of Children's Book Illustration (1988)) The 'Alice' books were considered free of all of this and were simple ENTERTAINING stories.
As I said to you this afternoon, it is my personal belief that the 'Alice' stories (and especially 'Wonderland') have had such longevity not only because they have been inspirational for illustrators and artists down the years in the Surreal ideas LC engaged with but also because, historically, it was a fantastically successful publishing venture from the start and thus became a sort of 'cultural icon' of children's literature. The fact that the stories are free of everything bar fantastic characters, weird environments and fun plot lines only adds to the freedom illustrators feel they have been given by LC.
This is an interesting angle you might like to consider in trying to answer your own question: 'Someone who enjoyed Alice's Adventures in Wonderland as a child may come back to the text as an adult and see the darker themes that were lost on them as younger readers.' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_literature)
Which leads me to the second thing... In his book on secret societies, J. Black draws unsettling comparisons between Alice in Wonderland and the initiation process into the ancient Eleusian Mystery Schools: 'Candidates fell down a hole, underwent a near-drowning experience before having to squeeze through a very small door and hold logic-chopping conversations with anthropomorphic animals.'
Perhaps the reason for Alice's popularity is something to do with mankind's search for some kind of spiritual meaning in a spiritually bereft world, and opinions are turning from organised thought to more raw, earlier religious ideas of spirituality.
What's your opinion on any of that?
Phew! What a range of things you're reading – good for you.
If one acknowledges that LC was writing 'fantasies' then it's difficult to then argue that there may be an “earlier religious idea of spirituality” in the stories that is attracting our contemporaries. Dissolution with religion – and it's own stories – may lead some people to be drawn towards fantasy as a means of pictorial inspiration – and, as I have suggested, the 'Alice' books have both the authority (if that is the right word) of history in support of them together with the fact that they offer a host of good ideas. I'm not sure I would be willing (or in fact interested) to pursue their appeal beyond such an obvious (I admit) explanation.
OK, I'm tired and going to bed - but let me know you have received this e-mail please.
See you next week - 2-4 remember
Have a good weekend and best wishes
Leo
You have won your cup of coffee!! Of course Jabberwock and the White Knight are in Looking Glass! I knew that! Fatigue is to explain for my lapse of memory! Hoo-boo! (as either Tweedledee or Tweedledum would have cried)
OK, here are some tentative answers to your questions:
Have you heard of Jenny Woolf? She wrote quite a good biography of Lewis Carroll, and in it she puts forward the view that the reason Alice was so popular was the lack of religiosity or morals that were so common in other childrens' books of the time. The country was of course in a heightened state of reassessment regards the Christian faith, a problem exacerbated probably by Darwin so recently to Alice's publication, and 'Carroll' must have been interested in all that too as a reverend.
You happened to mention that today's society is spiritually bereft. Do you reckon there's something in the argument that people found Alice so oddly compelling because it was refreshing not to have to think about those things, and the fascination still holds because that attitude is still the same?
Well, certainly 'Alice' is without direct or obvious moralising (you could, of course, find moral precepts in the stories – e.g. the White Rabbit's concern not to be late [a bad thing] The Queen's belief in unquestioned power ['Off with their heads!' at every displeasure she feels]) - but I think it is important to remember that LC himself said (somewhere) that his children's stories were 'fantasies' and without any ulterior meaning. I think what Woolf was saying is that the USUAL approach to children's literature HAD BEEN educational and moral as opposed to simply 'recreational'; e.g. the early Victorian literature for children had been heavily influenced by the Religious Tract society (see for example 'The Religious Tract Society as a publisher of children's books' and studies of such writers as Maria Edgeworth – I think) and this is usually well covered in the histories of children's literature and illustration for children's literature (see, for example Whalley & Chester History of Children's Book Illustration (1988)) The 'Alice' books were considered free of all of this and were simple ENTERTAINING stories.
As I said to you this afternoon, it is my personal belief that the 'Alice' stories (and especially 'Wonderland') have had such longevity not only because they have been inspirational for illustrators and artists down the years in the Surreal ideas LC engaged with but also because, historically, it was a fantastically successful publishing venture from the start and thus became a sort of 'cultural icon' of children's literature. The fact that the stories are free of everything bar fantastic characters, weird environments and fun plot lines only adds to the freedom illustrators feel they have been given by LC.
This is an interesting angle you might like to consider in trying to answer your own question: 'Someone who enjoyed Alice's Adventures in Wonderland as a child may come back to the text as an adult and see the darker themes that were lost on them as younger readers.' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_literature)
Which leads me to the second thing... In his book on secret societies, J. Black draws unsettling comparisons between Alice in Wonderland and the initiation process into the ancient Eleusian Mystery Schools: 'Candidates fell down a hole, underwent a near-drowning experience before having to squeeze through a very small door and hold logic-chopping conversations with anthropomorphic animals.'
Perhaps the reason for Alice's popularity is something to do with mankind's search for some kind of spiritual meaning in a spiritually bereft world, and opinions are turning from organised thought to more raw, earlier religious ideas of spirituality.
What's your opinion on any of that?
Phew! What a range of things you're reading – good for you.
If one acknowledges that LC was writing 'fantasies' then it's difficult to then argue that there may be an “earlier religious idea of spirituality” in the stories that is attracting our contemporaries. Dissolution with religion – and it's own stories – may lead some people to be drawn towards fantasy as a means of pictorial inspiration – and, as I have suggested, the 'Alice' books have both the authority (if that is the right word) of history in support of them together with the fact that they offer a host of good ideas. I'm not sure I would be willing (or in fact interested) to pursue their appeal beyond such an obvious (I admit) explanation.
OK, I'm tired and going to bed - but let me know you have received this e-mail please.
See you next week - 2-4 remember
Have a good weekend and best wishes
Leo
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